panoslydios
New Member
Θα σας παρακαλεσω να διαβασε πολυ καλα τον παρακατω διαλογο και
κυριως την τελευταια παραγραφο.
Λοιπον ο διαλογος ειναι μεταξυ ενος χρηστη και του ατομου
που διεξηγαγε την ερευνα με τις ενεσεις μποτοξ,αποδεικνυοντας οτι
η επανεκφυση ειναι δυνατη με τη δημιουργια καταλληλου επιπεδου αιματωσης .Σε υποξικα περιβαλλοντα στο τριχωτο,ευνοειται η μετατροπη
της τεστοστερονης σε dht ,με αποτελεσμα να δεχεται επιθεση ο θυλακας.
Η 5α αναγωγαση ανταγωνιζεται την αρωματαζη που μετατρεπει την τεστοστερονη σε οιστρογονα και η τελευταια αυτη διαδικασια ευνοειται σε περιοχες που αιματωνονται καλα και εχουν υψηλες συγκεντρωσεις οξυγονου.
Που κολλαει αυτο με τη μεταμοσχευση?Τι δεν ξερουν η δεν σας λενε οι γιατροι?
Οι τριχες στην πανω περιοχη δεν ειναι διαφορετικες απο τις τριχες στις μη καραφλες περιοχες!!!
Το ατομο που διεξηγαγε την ερευνα λεει οτι καθε ιστος (tissue) αλλαζει γενοτυπικη η φαινοτυπικη εκφραση αναλογα με το περιβαλλον που περικλειεται.
Αν η θεωρια του ''donor dominance'' ηταν σωστη ,τοτε εκεινοι που κανουν μμ πρεπει να βλεπουν μηδαμινα ποσοστα αποτυχιας ,κατι που δεν συμβαινει καθως δεν επιβιωνουν ολες οι τριχες 100%.
Ισχυριζεται παρακατω,οτι με την τομη για να μπει το μοσχευμα και την εισοδο του ξαναδημιουργειται ενα μικροκυκλοφοριακο περιβαλλον(microcirculation)
που ευνοει την επιβιωση του θυλακα και την σταθεροποιηση του.
Πραγματικα αξιζει να το διαβασετε και ισως το καταλαβετε καλυτερα απο μενα.Περιμενω σχολια!
Dr. Freund;
I am interested in the Botox treatment of hair loss, and was wondering what the approximate cost of the procedure was.
Thank you
Hi Mr. B,
I am semi-retired so I am not actively doing this procedure anymore. However I can tell you how the fees were structured in the past. It takes about 100 units of Botox to inject the periphery of the scalp which costs about $350 in drug. I used to charge about $250 to do the injections. That is about $6 per unit. The fees will vary depending on whether the injector considers it a 'cosmetic' procedure (more expensive) or a therapeutic procedure (less expensive). For most people it takes about 2 treatments per year to get and maintain the effect. Hope this helps!
Cheers, Brian Freund
Thank you very much for your response sir.
I have a couple more questions...
1. Can anyone qualified to perform botox injections do this procedure or do you hold the patent for it?
2. Is this something that can be done at home using iontophoresis?
Thank you!
Anyone qualified can inject for this procedure. The Germans tried iontophoresis a few years ago without very much success. Botox, due to its large molecular size and lack of charge and polarization, doesn't move through skin well. Xeomin is much smaller but I am unaware of any data for it.
Good Luck!
Brian, I feel as though my occipital muscles are my biggest problem, my scalp tends to stay bunched up in the back. Do you think it would be worthwhile to just do those muscles?
Also, did you get good reviews back from the customers who received this treatment.
I apologize if I am bothering you with all of these questions. It's just that I knew all along poor bloodflow was the main culprit behind balding and have been ridiculed because of my stance, now you have given me solid evidence to back my claims and I am very excited about not only the opportunity to grow my hair back without finasteride or minoxidil but also the other treatment possibilities that may be capitalized upon.
You could certainly start with those muscles and always inject more depending on the scalp laxity you achieve. The way I assess muscle contribution is by placing a hand on the top of the scalp and getting folks to wrinkle, frown, wiggle their ears etc and see what pulls the scalp.
As far as success; for those where it works - it works very well. However, it appears to arrest further hair loss in just about everybody. I will attach an abstract that I presented a few years ago which has a few pics taken about a year into treatment.
As far as blood flow you are correct. However, it is more than just follicular strangulation. The enzymatic pathway that converts testosterone into either estrogen or DHT is oxygen dependant. In areas of low oxygen such as the crown of the head DHT is favoured and we know what that does to hair follicles.
Cheers, B.
Brian, I need to trouble you for one more thing sir; do you have any literature discussing how t is converted to DHT in low oxygen environments?
It is not so much that Testosterone gets converted to DHT more effectively in low oxygen environments, it is that aromatase which converts testosterone to estradiols works much more efficiently in high oxygen environments. You therefore have the two enzyme systems - 5 alphareductase and aromatase competing for the same testosterone substrate. This paper is germane to the whole low oxygen, high DHT, no hair concept. Goldman also has some good references if you want to research further on any specific aspect. Cheers, B.
Dr. Freund:
I am getting a lot of resistance from the traditional hair loss crowd that say the old transplant experiments (Norstrom, etc) prove without a doubt that donor dominance is accurate and there is no way that loosening the scalp, or any other means of increasing blood flow to the scalp, could reverse miniaturization, and if the injections do in fact work as you rported it is by another mechanism.
They have read the Goldman findings and believe that the lock of oxygen in the scalp is caused BY a reduced number of hairs, not being the cause of loss.
Did you happen to take transcutaneous o2 readings on the scalp after performing the procedure?
Now you get an idea of what I have been up against. I did not do any oxygen measurements in the initial trial as it was a proof of concept only. The second trial would have measured many more parameters, however, funding was cut as the results were not significantly better than finasteride. From a research funding perspective the eventual commercialization potential was not there (funding for cosmetic indications is strictly based on $$ to be earned). The hair community found the concept of a pill much easier to swallow (pun intended).
Getting back to blood flow, the old research papers deal with microcirculation of the scalp and do indicate that the microcirculation does change with follicular atrophy based on tissue biopsy. In the end stage of baldness, even if you increase regional flow I don't think it is likely that the microcirculation will re-develop which is why you cannot get a shiny scalp to grow hair by any means, unless you replace the microcirculation with a graft. However, the grafting studies do not address regional blood flow - it was never a consideration. 'Donor dominance' is not nearly as clear cut as it used to be. We know that all sorts of tissues switch their genotypic or phenotypic expression based on the environment they are placed in. The most graphic example is coronary bypass. The veins used to replace the clogged arteries remain useful for about a decade at which point they have taken on the physical characteristics of the arteries they replaced, including becoming clogged. What the hair transplant guys don't tell you is that a considerable proportion of transplants eventually fail as well, which to me implies external environmental pressures otherwise you would expect a zero failure rate. You will be interested to know that the blond guy in the pictures I sent you is a failed hair transplant 12 years after plugs.
Some concepts (like the Earth is not flat) seem to take quite a while to mature. There is a guy who has been working on this concept for a number of years from an engineering standpoint. I have not communicated with David for quite a while (years) but he may have more data or ideas to offer you. http://www.malepatternbaldness.net/ , http://www.worldhairloss.org/i...attern_baldness
Cheers, B.
Afterthought! This is a link to a group of German clinics that has been using Botox for a number of years as part of their therapeutic toolbox. Google translate will give you a pretty good idea. ">http://www.ac-therapie.de/http://[/L]
κυριως την τελευταια παραγραφο.
Λοιπον ο διαλογος ειναι μεταξυ ενος χρηστη και του ατομου
που διεξηγαγε την ερευνα με τις ενεσεις μποτοξ,αποδεικνυοντας οτι
η επανεκφυση ειναι δυνατη με τη δημιουργια καταλληλου επιπεδου αιματωσης .Σε υποξικα περιβαλλοντα στο τριχωτο,ευνοειται η μετατροπη
της τεστοστερονης σε dht ,με αποτελεσμα να δεχεται επιθεση ο θυλακας.
Η 5α αναγωγαση ανταγωνιζεται την αρωματαζη που μετατρεπει την τεστοστερονη σε οιστρογονα και η τελευταια αυτη διαδικασια ευνοειται σε περιοχες που αιματωνονται καλα και εχουν υψηλες συγκεντρωσεις οξυγονου.
Που κολλαει αυτο με τη μεταμοσχευση?Τι δεν ξερουν η δεν σας λενε οι γιατροι?
Οι τριχες στην πανω περιοχη δεν ειναι διαφορετικες απο τις τριχες στις μη καραφλες περιοχες!!!
Το ατομο που διεξηγαγε την ερευνα λεει οτι καθε ιστος (tissue) αλλαζει γενοτυπικη η φαινοτυπικη εκφραση αναλογα με το περιβαλλον που περικλειεται.
Αν η θεωρια του ''donor dominance'' ηταν σωστη ,τοτε εκεινοι που κανουν μμ πρεπει να βλεπουν μηδαμινα ποσοστα αποτυχιας ,κατι που δεν συμβαινει καθως δεν επιβιωνουν ολες οι τριχες 100%.
Ισχυριζεται παρακατω,οτι με την τομη για να μπει το μοσχευμα και την εισοδο του ξαναδημιουργειται ενα μικροκυκλοφοριακο περιβαλλον(microcirculation)
που ευνοει την επιβιωση του θυλακα και την σταθεροποιηση του.
Πραγματικα αξιζει να το διαβασετε και ισως το καταλαβετε καλυτερα απο μενα.Περιμενω σχολια!
Dr. Freund;
I am interested in the Botox treatment of hair loss, and was wondering what the approximate cost of the procedure was.
Thank you
Hi Mr. B,
I am semi-retired so I am not actively doing this procedure anymore. However I can tell you how the fees were structured in the past. It takes about 100 units of Botox to inject the periphery of the scalp which costs about $350 in drug. I used to charge about $250 to do the injections. That is about $6 per unit. The fees will vary depending on whether the injector considers it a 'cosmetic' procedure (more expensive) or a therapeutic procedure (less expensive). For most people it takes about 2 treatments per year to get and maintain the effect. Hope this helps!
Cheers, Brian Freund
Thank you very much for your response sir.
I have a couple more questions...
1. Can anyone qualified to perform botox injections do this procedure or do you hold the patent for it?
2. Is this something that can be done at home using iontophoresis?
Thank you!
Anyone qualified can inject for this procedure. The Germans tried iontophoresis a few years ago without very much success. Botox, due to its large molecular size and lack of charge and polarization, doesn't move through skin well. Xeomin is much smaller but I am unaware of any data for it.
Good Luck!
Brian, I feel as though my occipital muscles are my biggest problem, my scalp tends to stay bunched up in the back. Do you think it would be worthwhile to just do those muscles?
Also, did you get good reviews back from the customers who received this treatment.
I apologize if I am bothering you with all of these questions. It's just that I knew all along poor bloodflow was the main culprit behind balding and have been ridiculed because of my stance, now you have given me solid evidence to back my claims and I am very excited about not only the opportunity to grow my hair back without finasteride or minoxidil but also the other treatment possibilities that may be capitalized upon.
You could certainly start with those muscles and always inject more depending on the scalp laxity you achieve. The way I assess muscle contribution is by placing a hand on the top of the scalp and getting folks to wrinkle, frown, wiggle their ears etc and see what pulls the scalp.
As far as success; for those where it works - it works very well. However, it appears to arrest further hair loss in just about everybody. I will attach an abstract that I presented a few years ago which has a few pics taken about a year into treatment.
As far as blood flow you are correct. However, it is more than just follicular strangulation. The enzymatic pathway that converts testosterone into either estrogen or DHT is oxygen dependant. In areas of low oxygen such as the crown of the head DHT is favoured and we know what that does to hair follicles.
Cheers, B.
Brian, I need to trouble you for one more thing sir; do you have any literature discussing how t is converted to DHT in low oxygen environments?
It is not so much that Testosterone gets converted to DHT more effectively in low oxygen environments, it is that aromatase which converts testosterone to estradiols works much more efficiently in high oxygen environments. You therefore have the two enzyme systems - 5 alphareductase and aromatase competing for the same testosterone substrate. This paper is germane to the whole low oxygen, high DHT, no hair concept. Goldman also has some good references if you want to research further on any specific aspect. Cheers, B.
Dr. Freund:
I am getting a lot of resistance from the traditional hair loss crowd that say the old transplant experiments (Norstrom, etc) prove without a doubt that donor dominance is accurate and there is no way that loosening the scalp, or any other means of increasing blood flow to the scalp, could reverse miniaturization, and if the injections do in fact work as you rported it is by another mechanism.
They have read the Goldman findings and believe that the lock of oxygen in the scalp is caused BY a reduced number of hairs, not being the cause of loss.
Did you happen to take transcutaneous o2 readings on the scalp after performing the procedure?
Now you get an idea of what I have been up against. I did not do any oxygen measurements in the initial trial as it was a proof of concept only. The second trial would have measured many more parameters, however, funding was cut as the results were not significantly better than finasteride. From a research funding perspective the eventual commercialization potential was not there (funding for cosmetic indications is strictly based on $$ to be earned). The hair community found the concept of a pill much easier to swallow (pun intended).
Getting back to blood flow, the old research papers deal with microcirculation of the scalp and do indicate that the microcirculation does change with follicular atrophy based on tissue biopsy. In the end stage of baldness, even if you increase regional flow I don't think it is likely that the microcirculation will re-develop which is why you cannot get a shiny scalp to grow hair by any means, unless you replace the microcirculation with a graft. However, the grafting studies do not address regional blood flow - it was never a consideration. 'Donor dominance' is not nearly as clear cut as it used to be. We know that all sorts of tissues switch their genotypic or phenotypic expression based on the environment they are placed in. The most graphic example is coronary bypass. The veins used to replace the clogged arteries remain useful for about a decade at which point they have taken on the physical characteristics of the arteries they replaced, including becoming clogged. What the hair transplant guys don't tell you is that a considerable proportion of transplants eventually fail as well, which to me implies external environmental pressures otherwise you would expect a zero failure rate. You will be interested to know that the blond guy in the pictures I sent you is a failed hair transplant 12 years after plugs.
Some concepts (like the Earth is not flat) seem to take quite a while to mature. There is a guy who has been working on this concept for a number of years from an engineering standpoint. I have not communicated with David for quite a while (years) but he may have more data or ideas to offer you. http://www.malepatternbaldness.net/ , http://www.worldhairloss.org/i...attern_baldness
Cheers, B.
Afterthought! This is a link to a group of German clinics that has been using Botox for a number of years as part of their therapeutic toolbox. Google translate will give you a pretty good idea. ">http://www.ac-therapie.de/http://[/L]